Help needed for 1-11 510ED Autopilot

Post by **MALTBY D** » 13 Oct 2006, 13:11

Understood Peter.
I guess it's like someone asking me about the equipment on the 1975 Austin Allegro I used to own.

If you do remember anything that may help, I'd be glad to know.

Hopefully an easier question. I'm assuming that it didn't have auto land.
Is that correct?

Thanks
David

Post by **DaveB** » 13 Oct 2006, 13:22

PeterM wrote:

DB...If it is possible to get a scan of the bit of the manual concerned with using the Autopilot, it might just bring it all back to the forefront

Sure thing Peter. Note though that the majority of info I have here is unfortunately for everything but the BEA/BA fit 1-11's and was the basis of what you see in DM's current 1-11 panel. I'll find the relevant pages and send them over. As you say.. seeing one may jog the old memory into action

ATB

DaveB :tab:

petermcleland · Post by **petermcleland** » 13 Oct 2006, 18:05

MALTBY D wrote:Understood Peter.
I guess it's like someone asking me about the equipment on the 1975 Austin Allegro I used to own.

If you do remember anything that may help, I'd be glad to know.

Hopefully an easier question. I'm assuming that it didn't have auto land.
Is that correct?

It did have Autoland but Duplex rather than Triplex controlled...I did several Autolands in it but it certainly was NOT as reliable as the Trident in this respect and often the Autopilot disconnected during the end of the flare as it was holding off :roll:

Post by **MALTBY D** » 13 Oct 2006, 19:11

Oh right, you learn something every day.
I'm pleased about that, as it'll be a fun addition to the model.
Not sure if I can make it slightly less reliable than the Trident though. It's a handy excuse if it doesn't work.

Thanks
David

cstorey · Post by **cstorey** » 13 Oct 2006, 19:30

David

you might like to ask Peter about his experience, but I have never seen an aeroplane yet (certainly post WW2) in which switches were not Up for On, and down for Off, and if I understand your original post correctly this is the way the 510ED is,which is exactly what i would expect on all the aircraft

FWIW Chris

petermcleland · Post by **petermcleland** » 13 Oct 2006, 20:09

cstorey wrote:David

you might like to ask Peter about his experience, but I have never seen an aeroplane yet (certainly post WW2) in which switches were not Up for On, and down for Off, and if I understand your original post correctly this is the way the 510ED is,which is exactly what i would expect on all the aircraft

You will notice that white line that runs along the switches and is also on the casing ahead of them...When the switches are all in the normal operating position then that white line on the switches lines up with the white line on the casing...Some of the switches have alternate positions...like on the left the Speed can be set to being controlled by Attitude or Throttle...Or on the right in the Height section there is a switch that can be at Aquire or Lock...If you have it at Aquire then as you reach the dialled altitude it drops into the Lock position. The three knobs just dial the numbers in the three windows. I'm not certain, but if you move that switch with Man printed below it then I think the Autopilot will be OFF. You can dial the windows with the AP Off and then just moving that switch, after Take-Off, will engage it all in normal mode with the Autopilot in Height Aquire mode and climbing to the dialled Altitude and speed locked by attitude to the dialled speed...not certain about all this but a few bells are ringing :think:

Post by **MALTBY D** » 13 Oct 2006, 20:40

Thanks Peter, it's starting to slot into place.

The 'Man' switch sounds good as the on/of you describe, as there isn't any other obvious on/off.
IAS/Throttle switch for speed is a dead cert, as is Aquire/Lock for height.
Do you reckon the switches next to IAS/Thot & Aquire/Lock will be 'Engage' for those modes?

Since it did have an auto land, I'd guess that the 'Glide' switch must have 'Land' for the up position.
That might just about cover it. :think:

--------------------------------------
Chris, I'm afraid it is true, white is black, up is down and down is over there...

This is 510ED G-AVMO at Cosford Scrapyard (pic courtessy of Simon Baskerville)

This is the exact same bit of 1-11 in G-ASYD at Brooklands (standard fit)

Note the switch 'Fire Auto' that's there to automatically put out fires on the APU when you're not on the flight deck. It's scary.
Mad as you like :madhead:

cstorey · Post by **cstorey** » 13 Oct 2006, 22:51

Dave

Those two photos are absolutely fascinating. the 510 ED is as I would expect i.e. up for on , see e.g. the pitot heat switches, and yet the earlier a/c appears to be opposite

I shall try to find some slides I probably still have from the 60s of a 400 ( Laker) and see if any are big enough to show the positions ( although I can't recall taking any of the overhead panel)

Post by **DaveB** » 14 Oct 2006, 01:19

Chris..

ASYD is a 475 so it's likely to be the same as your slides

ATB

DaveB :tab:

petermcleland · Post by **petermcleland** » 14 Oct 2006, 12:39

David M,

Another thing springs to mind...When I was on the S111 it had HARCO and I flew the whole time with the Autopilot driving the HARCO (Decca) tracks and there was a moving map in the middle of the main panel with a paper roll a bit like the Trident's doppler map. There was also a hole and some switches for the HARCO "Turret" at the rear of the centre console. The Turret was made up in the Flight Planning section and had a circle of little blue segments with white print, one for each Waypoint on the sector. The white print was just the three letters of the Waypoint code...like "DLE". Each sector had its Turret and each Turret had its Number in the centre of its top (surrounded by that circle of blue waypoint segments)...The plog for the sector E.G. Templhof to Munich would have the Turret number printed on it...So the First Officer (when arriving in the cockpit) just got out the little suitcase full of Turrets and selected the one with the correct number and plugged it into that hole at the rear of the centre console. The switchery I've forgotten but I've noticed that "Blanked Off and Locked" switch on the Autopilot row of switches in your photo and that could have been the switch to link Autopilot to HARCO.

Some time after I left the S111, they removed HARCO for reasons of cost and that could be when they "Blanked" that switch...On the other hand, they may well have removed Autoland at the same time and that "Blanked" switch could possibly have been something like "Prime Land"...Sorry to throw all this in but the original photo of the Autopilot switches is certainly not how it was when I flew it, so it is a bit confusing.

There were some interlocks on those switches as well...When Aquiring a Height the Switch would drop from Aquire to Lock and I think at the same time the Speed lock would drop out...It is possible that the speed lock would in fact click from Speed to Throttle and if the Pilot did not want the Autothrottle to start maintaining the speed in the window he would have to disengage the speed lock and then he could set the throttles himself...He would use both modes...For instance it would be convenient to allow the throttles to open up at the bottom of a descent, to maintain the speed...However, if the pilot had judged his descent properly then that point would be exactly where he wanted to slow down so he might want to leave the throttles where they were for the descent and he would therefore disconnect the speed lock as soon as it clicked to Throttle.

Descents in autopilot were normally controlled by having the Speed set in the window and locked and then the pilot manually adjusted the throttles to get the rate of descent that he required.

Actual methods of operating the S111 varied considerably because it was two crew...The three crew Trident meant that as a First Officer, you always spent half your time watching the other First Officer do the flying. The effect of this was that efficient methods rubbed off on both the watching First Officer and the Captain. This natural standardisation sort of spread through the fleet and worked very well...On the S111, none of the Captains had flown the aircraft as a First Officer and the First Officers had nobody else to watch...The result of this was that Captains all seemed to operate in slightly different ways and I was told by several Captains that First Officers had many different ways of operating :think: