Farewell to a friend and an era

[Techy111]

Very emotional film Brian... I spent many a happy hour lookin out from the same viewpoint as your wing view.....many happy hours staring at the sea whilst cadging rides out of kinloss....now all we need is a Shack for FSX and we are away....

Bring back the 80's......

Tony

[hobby]

Nimrod by Edward Elgar:

Most people know that Nimrod is the 'great hunter.' Our speaker told us that Elgar called this piece of music after a very close friend named 'Jaeger' ( I understand that Jaeger can be translated from the German as 'hunter.')

He also said that Elgar never intended that 'Nimrod' should be played as slowly as has become the fashion in recent years. Listen to a recent recording and you might believe that the 'mighty hunter's' prey was a tortoise!!!

We are all familiar no doubt with 'Spitfire Prelude', 'Dambusters March' and 'Aces High' etc. but did Coastal Command ever have its own march? If so does anyone have a sound clip?

[nigelb]

Nimrod by Elgar (skip if your not into music)

Yes, your speaker was right on. Nimrod was named after Elgar's close friend August Johannes Jaegar. He was also correct about the tempi. I have six different recordings of the complete Enigma variations and three additional recordings of the 'Nimrod' variation. I got curious and did a few comparisons. Sir Edward Recorded his second version (the first was an acoustical version) with Royal Albert Hall Orchestra in 1926. The tempos is definitly faster than more modern versions, especially beggining with the first crescendo. The total time for the variation is listed as 2:52. in 1947, Sir John Barbiroli conducted the Halle Orchestra at Kingsway Hall and performed 'Nimrod ' in 2:56. More modern versions: Sir Adrian Boult with the LSO times at 3:52 and Sir Andrew Davis with the BBC SO times at 4:15 That said Sir Adrian Boult cautions that "no composer-conductor varied more than Elgar in his interpretations of his own work from year to year." So a composer's performance can't always be considered as definitive. It does appear that with time, conductors have chosen to make 'Nimrod' less agile and more stately, perhaps reflecting the somwhat patriotic feeling that the variation has as performed in the present day.

Coastal command was a 1942 documetary film with music by Vaughan Williams. A concert suite from the film music was performed in 1942 and Christopher Palmer later added to the 1942 suite with additional music from the film. Palmer's version includes the following:

1. Prelude
2. Hebrides
3. U-Boat Alert
4. Taking off at Night
5. Hudsons Take-Off from Iceland
6. Dawn Patrol
7. Battle of the Beauforts
8. Finale

I am listening to that piece, performed by The Central Band of the Royal Air Force, as I type - so far no marches as obvious as say 'Dambusters' but I will edit if I find one. Oh, just found this http://www.amazon.co.uk/Heroes-Of-The-A ... -3-catcorr You can listen to short clips of the whole album. It is available as mp3 files or CD from Amazon. Note: An Amazon third party seller has the CD listed as £1.62 + £1.24 shipping. Another has it listed for £25.95!!

Nigel²

[hobby]

How extraordinary, I am no musician and I thought all music should be played as the composer intended - including the tempo as first written. An excellent piece of research, especially the music for the documentary 'Coastal Command.' Many thanks.

[emfrat]

I remember a tale about Sir Malcolm Sargent....He was being criticised for taking the last movement of something or other at a gallop, and replied "If I take the tempo up a bit, it sounds just as good, and it lets the lads get round to the pub for a pint, before Last Orders" That's leadership !

MikeW

[nigelb]

How extraordinary, I am no musician and I thought all music should be played as the composer intended - including the tempo as first written. An excellent piece of research, especially the music for the documentary 'Coastal Command.' Many thanks.

The problem is ofen in determining what the composer's intentions were. For example, Beehoven used metronomem markings on many of his works, yet many conductors ignore those and perform his works at slower speeds. Beethoven was deaf when he wrote many of his later pieces and the metronome markings were probably a concession to his publisher. For an interesting article see http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A961948260

In other cases musical directions such as 'pianissimo', allegro and so on are not exact indications and are subject to interpretation by different conductors. How soft, how brisk and cheerful? It is all subject to interpretation because unless the composer is still alive and can be consulted, no one really knows his intentions. The interpretation of the composer's intent is probably the most important job of the conductor. Waving the baton can be taught in a short period. The rest of the educaton, learning about the period in which the music was written, the performance traditions and trying to determine the composer's intent can take decades.

Mike - yes, Sir Malcolm, aka 'Flash Harry' was quite a character. So was Sir Thomas Beecham. " “Madam, you have between your legs an instrument capable of giving pleasure to thousands - and all you can do is scratch it”

Nigel²

[simondix]

Coastal Command.
I have the music on CD and the film on video.

I am a great fan of Vaughan-Williams music.

[emfrat]

Mike - yes, Sir Malcolm, aka 'Flash Harry' was quite a character. So was Sir Thomas Beecham. " “Madam, you have between your legs an instrument capable of giving pleasure to thousands - and all you can do is scratch it” Nigel²

Cheers Nigel -
There was another one, where Sir Thomas was informed that Sir Malcolm had been invited to conduct at a major event in Tokyo.
His comment was "Aah, Flash in Japan, eh?".

ATB
MikeW

[nigelb]

Cheers Nigel -
There was another one, where Sir Thomas was informed that Sir Malcolm had been invited to conduct at a major event in Tokyo.
His comment was "Aah, Flash in Japan, eh?".

ATB
MikeW

Don't think I had heard that one before - I wonder if our Gary is related to Sir Thomas?

Nigel²

[nigelb]

Elagar and Nimrod. Muisic and recording trivia warning!

I checked my other versions of the Nimrod variation and found that Sir Malcolm 'Flash Harry' Sargent, in a 1953 recording with the London Symphony Orchestra may have started the slow speed trend with a 3:58 timing. The other versions I have were all recorded later and are all over 4 minutes.

This is probably not the cause in this case, but there is one thing to bear in mind when comparing historical recordings with modern recordings. Recordings made up to the late forties/early fifties are in the 78rpm era. Time on a side of a 78 rpm disk was limited - about 3 1/2 minutes on a ten inch 78 and 4-5 minuted on a 12 inch disk, depending on volume modulation and other engineering considerations. Recording a symphony meant spreading the work out over several disks, perhaps wiith awkward fades at the side breaks. To minimize those, conductors were often encouraged to adopt faster tempi and eliminate repeats to fit the work as best as could be done on the 78 rpm disks. By the early fifties, the long player 33 1/3 was becoming common and that eliminated the problem for the most part. You could still have an awkward side break, but at least it was only one and not 10 or 12.

Incidentally, one of the design criteria for the CD: both Phillips and Sony agreed a recording of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony had to fit one one CD. Most recordings of this work last around 75 minutes, although Sir Roger Norrington recorded it with a timing of 62:13. He strictly followed Beethoven's metronome markings and may have omitted some repeats and it certainly sounds very different tempi wise from other conductors versions. Like Sir Malcolm Sargent, maybe he wanted the lads and lassies in the orchestra to get to the pubs before the last round!

Nigel²