Vistaliners 727-100 Dan-Air Paints

[Techy111]

Erick.....sorry i should have sorted this ages ago....

if i remember rightly i e-mailed you and got your permission a few months back....ring a ding dong...? (bell)

Tony

[DaveB]

and finally how many pieces of wood are there on a B727-100?

As it happens, there are a lot more than 6 on a Vickers Vanguard Merchantman

ATB

DaveB :tab:

[Garry Russell]

TBH I woudn't have known about the permissions being granted as the I downloaded after that and had the read me forbdding it

Not really fair to rely on secondhand info with such issues so I think John was right to be cautious.

Whatever

Thank you Erick for clearing it up.

We know now


Garry

[DispatchDragon]

Chris!!! But the Boeing AFM AWAY now :roll:


Answers were correct There is a "legend" that the 727-100 could get into a condition where selecting Flaps 40 could
get you into a position where the engines (originally JT8D-7s) could NOT overcome the rate of sink. As Chris pointed
out this legend was so prolific that airlines actually "gated" Flaps 40. I flew several times with an old ex "Six" Continental
captain by the name of Don Kyker who had lord knows how many hours on the 727 - Again as Chris says it was bad pilot
technique not the aeroplane itself, He showed a young crew (myself included sitting on the jump seat) how to take being vectored down with at Atlanta Hartsfield at 7000 feet early on morning to touch down in 3 minutes using 40 flap with the
touch of a master - amazed me (and the copilot (now a SENIOR Captain for JetBlue) and Atlanta ATC - He made the
Nine ton cement truck handle like a Cessna 150.

Sorry didnt mean to OFFTOPIC but my memories of the 727 over twenty years of dispatching them are all very very happy

She was a wonderful old girl


Ben - and Chris can you PM over at the Pond please

Leif

[Mark C]

There's no real need for 40-flaps, so on most planes it's locked out

On some aircraft it's FLAP 50 .... like on DC8's .... but .... now days its not used at some airports due to noise abatement procedures.... as I understand !

More flap imposes more drag which promotes slower safe approach speeds ....but .... which in turn requires more power in order to keep the aircraft stable .... and which then results in increased noise !

There is a "legend" that the 727-100 could get into a condition where selecting Flaps 40 could
get you into a position where the engines (originally JT8D-7s) could NOT overcome the rate of sink.

When it was first introduced, there were an abnormal number of B727 landing accidents (we're talking 100's here and the early 1960's).... resulting from crews having allowed their final approach speeds to bleed-off too critically .... and which then resulted in a lethal sink rate which couldn't easily be arrested even by the application of full power. One of the contributing factors behind this situation was also pilot training .... in particular their transition from props and turboprops to jet engines. Power is of course available much more quickly from propellers .... but .... not so with the slower spooling early turbojet and fanjet engines which could takeup to several seconds .... or more .... to achieve a desired power setting. In the case of the early B727 accidents, and with engines spooled back too much .... those "several seconds" simply weren't available to those crews in order for them to be able to successfully arrest the resulting stall.

I was recently reading a memoir by a retired QANTAS captain whom flew the airlines early turbojet powered B707-138's when they were first introduced during 1959. He states that QANTAS procedures with these aircraft during final approach was to have the gear and flaps all the way down at quite an early stage .... and a lot of power on too .... in order to reduce the engine spoolup time should a go-around at all become necessary.

Mark C
AKL/NZ & BOG/CO

[Garry Russell]

The early 707 spoolup times were quite long so I can see the logic there of driving it flap down against high power settings.

I had often heard of the large number of incidence in the early days with pilots coming off pistons until they learned that the jets had to be flown by the numbers at which point the incident rate dropped

I guess this was what it was reffering to.


Garry

[DaveB]

.. and it also had flap 50!! ;-)

ATB

DaveB :tab:

[TSR2]

EricT lent me the Eric Brown book which tells of quite a few issues with deck landings on early carrier jets, almost all because the pilots weren't used to the spool up times for a go arround.

[Tarasdad]

You do NOT want to get behind the power curve on a 727 of ANY series on approach and landing. BAD juju. BAD.

[DispatchDragon]

I guess this proves Capt Kyker's point - it wasn't the aeroplane it was the Yoke Control Device that was the problem,
BTW Don started flying in the right seat of a DC3 before World War 2. He was one of the initial cadre on the 727 when
Continental first took the aircraft on fleet. Its a shame that he couldn't finish out a highly illustrious career with CAL
Due to the politic of Lorenzo.He was relegated to flying beat up 727s for Emery in the middle of the night

By the way for what its worth -- Those who can do......those who cant write glowing histories of themselves

Leif