Engines need a tune-up?

[aeroart]

CH,

Part of the acceleration problem I was having was that I was actually paying attention to staying out of the red area on the temperature gauges by keeping the throttle setting at the top of the yellow range. I had memories of flying David Maltby's BAC-111, in which too long a throttle setting in the red would cause both engines to quit. I got to practice a few dead-stick landings into Boeing Field after the engines quit shortly after take-off from KSEA before it occurred to me to pay attention to those gauges.

This is supposed to be fun, isn't it?

Art

[dfarrow]

Like Peter , It's a long time since dec '85 ,the last time I 'operated' a Trident . Peter, I seem to remember 90 seconds was noise abatement time . Perhaps 500 ft per min . climb whilst accelerating to flaps up [ 190 ] , and droop up [ 225 ] ; max of 250 'til droop up . Then accelerate and climb as Peter recommends . Coming downstairs in an empty T2 could be fun with a good skipper .... 365 kts , No2 throttle closed and 10,000 rpm reverse on 1 and 3 . Speedbrakes out . Something like 17000 ft per min down .
Max con. RPM might have been 12000, on Spey 512s .

Boost engine use on T3s ...
Remember a Glasgow t/o . Cold Feb day Snow in LHR and all the way N.
So we wanted fuel GLA-LHR , call it 3000 kgs
+ diversion fuel back to GLA . call it 3000 kgs
+ 45 mins reserve fuel back at GLA , say 2500 kgs
+ 1hours holding fuel at LHR say 3300 kgs
+ start taxi fuel say 200kgs

Total say 12000kgs .
Plus a full load [140 pax ] say 14000kgs

Thus for t/o we needed the boost eng . [ 5,000lbs thrust ] Think it was an RB162 , with plastic fan blades .
Sod's law , the boost would not light ..... We had to sit at the holding point with 3 Speys at 11000plus rpm for 1/2 hour to burn fuel down to a boostless t/o weight .
At last in the hold at Bovingdon [ BNN 113 .75 ] , landing rwy 09L , sweeping 09R . A 757 blocks landing Rwy . MAN has just opened up , so a Super 111 beneath us in the hold , calls '' Mayday , We're steering a direct course to MAN , clear the way . We're on fumes '' .
We just manage to hold on and land on 09R , not fully swept .

Thus we 'operated' Tridents , couldn't really fly them 'til they were cleaned up and accelerated so a clb at 330kts/M.8 , crz M.86 , des M.86/360kts was flying .
Yes she was ' The Gripper ' , airborne only due to the Earth's curvature .

rgds dave f .

[dfarrow]

Art , just seen you mention an ATP , is that a USA Airline Transport rating like our ATPL [Airline Transport Pilots Licence ] .....OR a Bae ATP [ Advanced Turbo Prop ] ????
Which by the way a lot of crew don't like to admit to having flown ! But in it's own way is a very good robust 60+ seater , or nowadays a 6-7 tonne freighter . .......But it climbs like a Trident .

rgds dave f .

[tombeckett]

Absolutely cracking advice there Dave - the sort of concrete figures from an actual Trident driver I've been hankering after!

I flew LXGB-EGLL last night and the OAT (25C) at Gib meant my T3 was EGT limited - 595C was giving me 11800rpm which didn't provide much in the way of acceleration, even with Boost. I was at 4000ft and the stopwatch on 4:30 by the time I could get the slats up - luckily there wasn't any terrain close in

If you can remember - did you use Flaps 28 as standard TO setting on the T3? Also - I believe that when in T1 or T2 the procedure involves flap retraction at 500ft then climb at 10degrees pitch to Noise Abatement speed (VNA) until 3000ft - what was VNA? Was it V2+20? v2+30?

[dfarrow]

Tom , most of my 12 years were on T1/2s , only last 3 or so were Tridexterous , yes that's what it was called when on all of them . Have brain fade , and all manuals that I had were given to the guys getting a Trid sim back operating . But seem to think that on the T2 F10 or F15 were used for t/o , exceptionally maybe F25 . On T2 certainly F25 was approach flap with 1 engine out , land flap only being selected very late in the approach when field made and landing assured [ one dark and stormy night in Stuttgart ] . Other types used about a max of F20 or so for t/o so F28 might be excessive .... but Gib is short for a Tee bird .
Flap retract at 500' seems low , normal min turn ht for civil is normally 500' [ 'cept at GIB ] ! Min Ha for t/props 400' ; for Boeings/Lockheed , min Ha 1000' , think that was all for Performance A certification . So I would guess 1000' for flap retract for T-birds.
Think you are correct for 3000' as end of noise abatement , V2 + 20 or + 30 ? memory gone ... but other types had full manoeuvring at V2 +20 , so I would plump for that .
T2/3s at Gib were always a challenge , 155 kts down finals , poor brakes and reverse in the flare normally stopped us [ one or two ended up in cabbage patch at end of EDI's short Rwy ]. Departure on Westerly , needed a very early left turn to avoid Spanish airspace , likewise arrival on Easterly was a tight right base with a turn on to final at 300' ish .
Cleared to go on Westerley one day ; Skipper said... '' wait 5 there's a ship crossing our climb out track'' . ATC.... '' But he's 4 miles out '' ! Skipper '' have you seen this with an engine out '' ? ATC ... '' take as long as you want '' ...
B737-200s were much better a/c for Gib , app slower , brakes / reverse better , t/o performance good . Only downside was handling the Gib turbulence [ can be horrific ] ... wing drops , pick it up with aileron , pause, yawn, pause .. aileron kicks in . T-bird ailerons immediate response , thus lovely to fly [ sports car handling ] but an efficient people carrier ?

rgds dave f

[petermcleland]

Like Peter , It's a long time since dec '85 ,the last time I 'operated' a Trident . Peter, I seem to remember 90 seconds was noise abatement time . Perhaps 500 ft per min . climb whilst accelerating to flaps up [ 190 ] , and droop up [ 225 ] ; max of 250 'til droop up . Then accelerate and climb as Peter recommends . Coming downstairs in an empty T2 could be fun with a good skipper .... 365 kts , No2 throttle closed and 10,000 rpm reverse on 1 and 3 . Speedbrakes out . Something like 17000 ft per min down .
Max con. RPM might have been 12000, on Spey 512s .

Boost engine use on T3s ...
Remember a Glasgow t/o . Cold Feb day Snow in LHR and all the way N.
So we wanted fuel GLA-LHR , call it 3000 kgs
+ diversion fuel back to GLA . call it 3000 kgs
+ 45 mins reserve fuel back at GLA , say 2500 kgs
+ 1hours holding fuel at LHR say 3300 kgs
+ start taxi fuel say 200kgs

Total say 12000kgs .
Plus a full load [140 pax ] say 14000kgs

Thus for t/o we needed the boost eng . [ 5,000lbs thrust ] Think it was an RB162 , with plastic fan blades .
Sod's law , the boost would not light ..... We had to sit at the holding point with 3 Speys at 11000plus rpm for 1/2 hour to burn fuel down to a boostless t/o weight .
At last in the hold at Bovingdon [ BNN 113 .75 ] , landing rwy 09L , sweeping 09R . A 757 blocks landing Rwy . MAN has just opened up , so a Super 111 beneath us in the hold , calls '' Mayday , We're steering a direct course to MAN , clear the way . We're on fumes '' .
We just manage to hold on and land on 09R , not fully swept .

Thus we 'operated' Tridents , couldn't really fly them 'til they were cleaned up and accelerated so a clb at 330kts/M.8 , crz M.86 , des M.86/360kts was flying .
Yes she was ' The Gripper ' , airborne only due to the Earth's curvature .

rgds dave f .

Thanks for refreshing my memory Dave...Yes, the numbers that you have quoted in that post ring bells for me and I'm sure they are all correct. I would recommend that any aspiring Flight Sim Trident pilots should copy and paste Dave's post and save it somewhere or print it out...Flying the Trident with the correct speeds is very rewarding

[tombeckett]

Fantastic info Dave, much appreciated!

I've read others opinion of the Trident's flying capabilities - particularly its outstanding roll rate. Still my favourite kite to fly in FSX - I'm working on a slight airfile and aircraft cfg mod to the T2 to try and emulate the 1C. I know the wings are shorter and it has droop rather than slats but it'll be nice for a little more variety if I can get it any good!

I only queried the F28 TO because I read a historic issue of Flight International from the time the T3 entered service and they described the use of F28 for takeoff, then thrust reduction at 90secs from beginning of the roll. Flaps up, slow climb to 3000ft then climb thrust and accelerate to Slat retraction. I thought 28 might have offered a little too much drag during the second segment but the BEA bods of the time obviously thought it was a good idea.

What was the usual start problem with the Boost - just a failure to light off during the start sequence? I assume that the start sequence was fully automatic; I.e you flicked the starter switch and waited??

[dfarrow]

Tom , I was only on the T3 for it's last 2 years . So by then we'd 737-200s and 757s arriving ; not to mention the Trident patched up wings [ wing cracks from rough rwys like FRA ]. Thus we were not used so much on performance limiting routes , and the need to use the boost was infrequent . It seemed to be reliable , as you say boost master sw. on . Push start button , wait for idle OK light . When ready push t/o button ; [ might have been a climb thrust button as well ] , finish , push idle button , cool down cycle , push stop button , master sw. off ..... or something like that . Sorry but not got T3 in fs .
We've a course reunion in October ; I'll ask around then . Memory is totally lost on t/o flap usage , sorry . So F28 might be ok .
Memory is fresh of an unapproved landing technique 'tho .... Landing pilot called for the power he required down finals , 10800 , 11000 , 11400 , 10600 , 11000 etc. The non- handling pilot set the power , and pulled power off for the flare on command , and reverse [ in the flare if needed ] . Mainly [ I'm guessing here ] , 'cos with the straight throttles , and rams horn yoke , you could not comfortably reach the 'throtts and fly her . The T1Es from NorthEast , and Mr WU [ G-ASWU ] T1E rescued from Cyprus after the '74 war ; all had cranked back throttles and could be comfortably used by pilot handling , and thus [ 'tho non - standard ] you could fly and set your own power on finals .
Bit embarrassing floating down a few feet off 27 R , until skipper asks , '' Lad , do you want power off yet '' ?...............
Landing was never guaranteed to be smooth , [ stiff suspension ] ! BUT if you'd powered off and flared too late , to avoid the coming Thump , a judicious push forward on controls , would arrest the pulling of the mainwheels into the ground . And lift them up nicely into a softish skip ! ..... Job done .

Rgds dave f .